A Tale Of Three Strengths--Obama, Edwards And Clinton

howardpark has a recommended diary up here at MyDD, "Bloggers Keep Missing The Obama Story" in which he said:

That is a provocative title but I'm experiencing a strong case of deja vu.  Three months ago bloggers and everyone else professed amazement at Obama's number of donors and fundraising success.  Then it died down and pretty much all I saw for the next few months was a lot of meaningless snarky nit-picking about Obama's perceived campaign strategy or utterance by him or a staff person, but really nothing about the what drives Obama and what is propelling his campaign.

OTOH, over at DKos, ArkDem14 has a recommended diary, "Edwards Crushes Fred Thompson!", which goes on to show state after state of SUSA polls in which Edwards outperforms Clinton and Obama against Guiliani.  For example:

Ohio:
Clinton 48%, Guiliani 45%
Edwards 50%, Guiliani 42%
Obama 40%, Guiliani 51%

And, of course, it goes without saying that in national primary polls, Clinton remains far in the lead.

My point here is simple:  All three candidates have different strengths which their proponents can constantly harp on.  But we seem to have a very hard time critically comparing the three.

howardpark goes on to write:

Last week, however, I saw it.  I saw how students at Howard University were grabbing for Obama signs like starving children would grab for candy.  Students are almost always a leading indicator in campaigns.  I've seen it too among friends of friends and family who -- mostly I never could have imagined would vote for a African-American -- who are flocking to Obama in places like my hometown of St. Louis where both Democrat Congressmen (Clay & Carnihan) have endorsed him.  I've seen Obama too, a lot lately, and for the first time since the 1970's someone evokes the best of the 1960's.  The Obama campaign is what generational change looks like and what a movement looks like.
I've already explained in a whole slew of comments why the "movement" claim rings hollow for me, why Obama seems much closer to the charismatic JFK in 1960 than to the actual movement candidacy of RFK eight years later.  So I won't repeat that here.

But I will point out that generational change was what McGovern represented in 1972, and he lost the youth vote to Nixon.  "Students are almost always a leading indicator in campaigns"?  Not in 1972.  McGovern had the students--and Nixon used that very effectively against him.

I sincerely doubt that any Democrat--even Mike Gravel--could lose the youth vote a Republicna this time out.  But winning the youth vote alone is no guarantee--as those SUSA state polls cited by ArkDem14 should remind us.

More fundamentally, to answer howardpark's criticism--that bloggers just don't seem to get Obama--I just have to say that perhaps some don't, and perhaps others do.  Having felt such enthusiasm themselves before, perhaps they can appreciate it without necessarily sharing it themselves.  And this can be either wise or foolish, depending on the consciousness and the thought process it comes out of.

(Not to date myself, but.... Are they Bobby Darin fans scoffing at the Beatles?  Or Beatles fans scoffing at the Monkeys?)

OTOH, ArkDem14's diary has a kind of critical realism about it.  He notes, for example, that Edwards loses against Guiliani in New York--though he argues this need not seal his fate, even if Guiliani is the candidate. And he squarely faces up to Edwards's fundraising slump:

I was extremely disapointed that Edwards is likely going to end being the only candidate to raise less this quarter than during th previous quarter. There's just no excuse. In this game, money is everything, and money is what the media and the pundits care about. 9 million is pathetic, and if Edwards doesn't get his act together he won't be going anywhere. If I were his advisor I would tell him the next three months of his life should be nonstop fundraising. That he shouldn't fundraise as part of a campaign, but campaign during his fundraising. If were him, I would devote 12 hours a day, seven days a week to raising money so that I could pull closer to Obama and Clinton.

So here's what I see as quite typical in these two posts: The Obama supporter is gushing. The Edwards supporter is critically analytical. I'm not saying that all their supporters are like that. But in the blogosphere, the tendency of the most prominent voices certainly tends that way. And I'm not saying that either one is right.

I'm certainly more of the analytic critic when it comes to candidates. (I'll save my gushing for artists, activists, and everyday heroes, thank you.) But I know that campaigns and parties need both kinds.  It's easier, I'm sure, for us analytic types to understand the gushers, rather than the other way around--even though the gushers are positive that we don't understand them at all.

And yet, we have to find ways to speak and listen to one another.  That doesn't mean agree with one another.  In the background, we already agree on a lot that we don't even bother to talk about.  In the foreground, we probably won't agree on much of what we publicly disagree on.

But what if we try to make a new foreground?  What if we try starting a new conversation that's not about the candidates themselves, and how we feel about them, but about the mission of rebuilding America's political system so that it can work for all of us?  We may each have different ideas of who's been left out, and how to include them, but I think very few of us would argue with that description as something we can all agree on.

And if it's not, then let's have another discussion first: What is a framework for politics we all can agree on?  Because one thing's for certain: we need to be building bridges with one another if we're to have any hope of building bridges with the rest of America---and the world.



Display:


p.s. Re: Clinton (3.00 / 2)

I didn't address Clinton's strengths primarily because her partisans are barely part of the conversation here--certainly not enough for me to readily generalize.  But if any Clinton supporter reads this and wants to jump in, then by all means, please do so.

I may not be a big fan of hers, but I certainly don't buy the notion that "Clinton can't win because of her high negatives," for example. And I do think that the need to undestand one another includes Clinton supporters as well.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 06:02:10 PM EST

Re: p.s. Re: Clinton (none / 0)

Here's an Edwards' strength - but it's doubtful some will find it as exciting as
pole dancing.

http://blog.johnedwards.com/oc/whatisone corps


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 12:26:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale Of Three Strengths--Obama, Edwards And (3.00 / 0)

I agree with your analysis that we have we already agree on a lot that we don't even bother to talk about and note that the Obama and Edwards campaigns, and supporters, have more in common than we acknowledge; a populist appeal, a message of change and egalitarian values.

As an Obama supporter I don't disagree with much of Edwards' platform and have been pleased to see him raise significant issues in the campaign which, it seems to me, have helped pull both Obama and, to a lesser extent, Hillary slightly to the left.

It is interesting to note that the combined polling, not to mention resources, of these two challenges that of the 'establishment' candidate and one wonders what dynamic that will bring to the campaign.  I am beginning to see the Edwards and Obama support as two slightly different expressions of the same progressive aspirations in the electorate.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 06:44:47 PM EST

Re: A Tale Of Three Strengths--Obama, Edwards And (3.00 / 1)

I do, however, take exception to your characterisation of Obama's supporters as non-analytical though I can understand why you take this view.  Obama's campaign is a legitimate candidacy by an extremely intelligent and qualified politician who has sincere aspirations for the country and the electorate.  Is it perhaps too soon to dismiss it as a 'Children's Crusade?'


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 06:56:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale Of Three Strengths--Obama, Edwards And (none / 0)

I don't think he means everyone. One of the reasons Obama has become a close second for me are offline discussions I have had with supporters who explains his appeal better than some here do. One of the reasons I still have great reservations about HRC is that her supporters off and online seem about the same in their discussions of her.


by bruh21 on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 07:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't Cartoonize What I Said! (3.00 / 1)

You:

I do, however, take exception to your characterisation of Obama's supporters as non-analytical though I can understand why you take this view.

Me:
So here's what I see as quite typical in these two posts: The Obama supporter is gushing. The Edwards supporter is critically analytical. I'm not saying that all their supporters are like that. But in the blogosphere, the tendency of the most prominent voices certainly tends that way. And I'm not saying that either one is right.
Not only was a careful to qualify my statement. I explicitly disavowed the view that one was right and the other wrong.
You:
Obama's campaign is a legitimate candidacy by an extremely intelligent and qualified politician who has sincere aspirations for the country and the electorate.
With all due respect, however, this qualifies as "gushing" in my book.  I don't disagree with it.  I just don't find it terribly informative.

You:

Is it perhaps too soon to dismiss it as a 'Children's Crusade?'
And I don't do that. This sort of defensive trope is what we need to get beyond, IMHO.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 07:16:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No Offence Intended (3.00 / 4)

Senator Obama strikes me as a process-oriented rather than an issues-oriented candidate.  The lofty rhetoric about 'changing the politics in this country' which so frustrates his detractors is matched by a consistent set of process-oriented actions as legislator and presidential candidate.  I understand his message that the process must be changed, that it has an accretion of actors and influences which though merely convention and not law have shaped the outcomes of the democratic process, and not necessarily in the interest of the citizens.  I can see from his career as community activist, Constitutional scholar and legislator that he is qualified to understand this situation and is equipped to discern a solution and act on it, hence his candidacy.

His Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act, co-authored with Tom Coburn last year, would give citizens transparent access to approximately $1 trillion in federal grants, contracts, earmarks and loans.  He authored legislation which was attached to the Department of Homeland Security funding bill which proscribed no-bid government disaster relief contracts and also has introduced the Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act.  In the campaign he has openly advocated public election finance, though declining in the primary, and has taken the trouble to get a ruling from the FEC that general election public finance is still a possibility and has invited the Republican nominee to agree to use it.  He has declined to accept lobbyist and PAC contributions and contributors must affirm this on his contributions page.  Recently he revealed his Senate earmarks, and by example challenged his legislative colleagues to do so as well.  Last week he introduced a set of reforms which he would 'impose' as president which would end some lobbyist and contracting practices in the executive branch and give 'the public greater access to government business.'

He is not an anti-War candidate or an anti-Poverty candidate but a candidate who is proposing to change, in fact reform, the processes by which we elect our politicians and they govern.  That seems to be our most pressing problem and one which will facilitate finding solutions to the others.  When he says things like we can change the special-interest-driven politics in Washington and transform our country many people apparently hear an empty phrase but I hear a dog-whistle tuned to just the right frequency.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 09:57:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Offence Intended (3.00 / 3)

Senator Obama strikes me as a process-oriented rather than an issues-oriented candidate.  The lofty rhetoric about 'changing the politics in this country' which so frustrates his detractors is matched by a consistent set of process-oriented actions as legislator and presidential candidate.
I think that's a fair statement. And a good way of getting at what I think is lacking.  Our great era of procedural reform was the Progressive Era, but it came up remarkably short.  More good intentions than results.  In contrast, our great era of structural reform was the New Deal.  But structural reforms also brought procedural reforms with them as well.  The New Deal wasn't perfect, either.  But it was significantly more effective.

I can see from his career as community activist, Constitutional scholar and legislator that he is qualified to understand this situation and is equipped to discern a solution and act on it, hence his candidacy.
I can see that he could be so equipped.  But I think that the historical evidence is plain: procedural reforms, though necessary, are far from sufficient.

He is not an anti-War candidate or an anti-Poverty candidate but a candidate who is proposing to change, in fact reform, the processes by which we elect our politicians and they govern.  That seems to be our most pressing problem and one which will facilitate finding solutions to the others.  When he says things like we can change the special-interest-driven politics in Washington and transform our country many people apparently hear an empty phrase but I hear a dog-whistle tuned to just the right frequency.
This is, however, remarkably similar to what the Progressives believed.  They did some good things--direct election of Senators, passing the Pure Food and Drug Act, etc.--but they generally were mistaken that proceedural change was sufficient in itself.

In fact, overall, their proceedural changes did more to aid the powerful than the powerless.  Their civic reforms tended to block socialists from gaining significant governing power in the industrial Northeast.  Their initiatives tended to be used most successfully by the same special interests who dominated the legislatures they were trying to circumvent.  And their focus on good government was the culmination of an ideological shift against expanded voting rights that was the catalyst of a prolonged decline in voter participation rates that is with us to this day.

I'm not saying that Obama's good intentions are doomed to have equally problematic results.  Rather, I think they make a good starting place, if people are willing to take seriously the lessons of history that something more is needed as well.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 10:34:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Offence Intended (3.00 / 1)

Well, I guess that is where people like you come in, to demonstrate some of the lessons of history and help us get it right.  I certainly hope we can reverse the ideological shift against expanded voting rights that was the catalyst of a prolonged decline in voter participation rates that is with us to this day.  This seems central to Obama's thesis and we will need to watch this space closely for signs of flagging determination.  Many, if not all, of these historical risks are still relevant and without a proper understanding of how these obstacles can be avoided or overcome we clearly may fail in our stated objectives.

No sooner do we reform this process then those who seek to acquire or maintain extraordinary influence will seek to manipulate the process, I don't see this cycle of reform and degeneration ever ending.  But the price of democratic representation is eternal vigilance and nobody has been minding the store for far too long.

I also agree that this is merely the starting point, but it seems to me the appropriate or optimal one.  If we can reform the process in such a way as it invites the participation of increasing numbers of citizens there is no limit to what might be achieved in the future.  I have a great deal of respect for your grasp of the historical narrative which informs our current politics and agree that we need to be much better informed on how any attempts at innovation or renovation look from the perspective of our own progressive history.  I wonder if we could even contemplate the structural reforms you remind us are missing without some more significant, positive mandate from the electorate.  Creating that mandate, somehow, seems to be where Obama is headed but I admit we are in uncharted waters.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 11:04:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Offence Intended (none / 0)

I wonder if we could even contemplate the structural reforms you remind us are missing without some more significant, positive mandate from the electorate.  Creating that mandate, somehow, seems to be where Obama is headed but I admit we are in uncharted waters.
This is where Edwards shows his strength by focusing on poverty and getting the kinds of head-to-head results that ArkDem14 presented.  It's where Obama falls short by being too process-focused to claim a substantive mandate for structural reforms.

This could change with time, of course. But that's where I see things standing now.

If I had to commit right now, I'd say that I favored an Edwards/Obama ticket, because Edwards would mobilize a mandate for significant change, and Obama, as VP, would be an excellent facilitator, getting substantial changes passed with broader support by virtue of his attention to process and consensus-building.  Then, by the time it was his turn to be President, he there would be less of a need for structural change, and more of a need for what he does best.

But this is still a long way out from the election, and I personally find it still to premature to choose sides.  I share that thought simply to illustrate the kind of interactive thinking of possibilities into the future that I'd like to see us all engage in.

Whatever possible such scenarios we envision, however, they will not happen without us staying involved.  Although they can play a crucial role, neither Edwards nor Obama is going to save us.  As Eugene Debs said, "I would not lead you into the promised land if I could, because if I led you in, some one else would lead you out."


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 11:48:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Offence Intended (3.00 / 3)

I agree with the framing of Obama as the procedural and Edwards as the structural reformer.  This discussion clarifies that distinction for me and explains why I am also very drawn to Edwards' positions and message.  But I still wonder whether that kind of structural change is possible without re-energising the electorate and getting a broad, unequivocal mandate, at least among Democrats.  Without getting into the horse-race aspects of the campaign it seems, at least at this stage, that Edwards' proposals for structural reform have not resonated in the electorate nearly as strongly as they have among dedicated progressives and this does not bode well for his, and our, ambitions in this respect.

I believe that the procedural reform must occur first, if only to neutralise the extraordinary influence exerted by actors who are not interested in reform of any kind, but in their own, or their client's, power and prosperity.  If I thought that Edwards could achieve structural reform in the absence of a sea change I would support him.  In any case I strongly agree that Obama's and Edwards' strengths are complimentary and that the synergy that they could have if they worked, somehow, together is an underutilised asset to the cause.  My preference, obviously, would be for an Obama/Edwards candidacy in the general election because I believe the procedural reform must precede the structural, but at least now I know why.  

Incidentally, I take Debs' point about the messianic tendency of causes and sincerely hope that is not where this is all headed, Lord knows.  


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 12:23:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks to both of you (3.00 / 1)

for a fruitful thread.
by horizonr on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 12:42:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There Is Certainly A Paradox (none / 0)

between Edwards standing third primary polls, but doing better in head-to-heads against Republicans.

In part because he's a Southerner, and because of his economic populism, he has a chance to win outer South states and run up a very solid majority, which should also help us increase our Congressional majorities.

But he can't do that if he's not the candidate now can he?


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 01:13:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There Is Certainly A Paradox (none / 0)

No.  Nor Obama mobilise the youth, disenfranchised and independents with all the down-ticket benefits which an alternate populist victory might bring if he is not the candidate.  Shucks.  Don't suppose there is any way they could both be on the ticket?

I agree there seems something odd, and promising, in the Edwards polling paradox.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 01:26:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And Wouldn't It Be Wonderful If (none / 0)

solving paradoxes actually solved our problems?


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:14:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And Wouldn't It Be Wonderful If (none / 0)

Well, if solving a paradox reveals a possible truth, that's always a good place to start.  But, if I understand you correctly, I agree there is a long road ahead to genuine and lasting reform.

I guess we better get started.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:04:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Precisely! (none / 0)

You got my drift.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 09:06:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Offence Intended (none / 0)

Honestly, people who are being polled haven't heard Edwards' message about poverty. People who are being polled know that he's that good-looking guy that ran with Kerry who had a great accent, but they don't know anything about his policies (yet).

The head-to-heads are pretty meaningless name recognition/positive IDs at this point. A significant number of people don't even recognize Barack Obama at this point, and many more don't know much more than the fact that he's a young black guy running for Senate.

I think the Edwards people are attaching to much significance to this polling (and I think the same is true for the Obama people re: the money race).


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:36:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Offence Intended (none / 0)

running for President, not Senate. My bad.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:37:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This Is Plausible, But Speculative (none / 0)

Particularly given how much attention has been focused on Clinton and Obama.  And how much Edwards focused on poverty in his first run.

The point of posting this diary was to encourage folks to think beyond these sorts of automatic responses.  Care to give it a try?


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 09:13:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sure (3.00 / 1)

The most informed voters are partisan voters. Independent, or "swing" voters, are always, practically without exception, the voting bloc that is the least informed about elections (if you don't believe me, I can probably look up some voting behavior studies for you). The voters that are swinging back and forth between support for Giuliani and Edwards or Obama fall under this latter category.

These are the types of voters who don't really pay attention during the primaries. In fact, they likely won't pay attention until post-Labor Day 2008, and, in the case of the last election, post-Labor Day 2004. Even though Edwards has been talking about the "Two Americas" thing for 5 years now, these voters weren't paying a whole lot of attention to him; they were focused on George Bush and John Kerry. So they may have caught a couple of tidbits from Edwards. Maybe they associate a vague sense of economic populism with his name or maybe they remember the fact that he's the "son of a millworker" candidate. I'm not sure, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that not too many know the details of any of his policy proposals, and most are just voting off of what they remember from him in 2004 (young, good-looking and southern, a stark contrast to Kerry). So that's why I think these head-to-heads are very superficial, especially at this early point in the primary season, when an even smaller amount of these voters are paying attention (I'd still argue that Obama's lower recognizables give him more room to grow, but that's quite beside the point of electability being tricky to judge at this point).

What does seem to be good about these numbers is that Edwards' popularity with these voters hasn't taken a hit because of the haircut/hedge fund/mansion string of headlines. Granted, nobody's run a negative ad on him in the history of his national career, but it seems like either people don't know or don't care about his lifestyle (Hillary Clinton's pollster, Mark Penn, seems to be betting they don't know, since he's been spending the money and risking the blowback to try and find out through message-testing polls). That's definitely a good thing, and hopefully it stays that way.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:17:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Of Course You're Right About Swing Voters Generaly (none / 0)

being low-information.  But the question tehn is: so what?  It's hard to know from these sorts of polls if they've already got enough information for their purposes, which is what I was trying to get at.

The sorts of polling that could tell you that would have to include a batter of at least 2-3 positive and negative pieces of information, to see how much this swayed people.  And that would just begin to answer such questions.

Absent that, the general consistency of Edwards doing better across a broad number of states despite being neglected in the press does have to mean something.

What does seem to be good about these numbers is that Edwards' popularity with these voters hasn't taken a hit because of the haircut/hedge fund/mansion string of headlines.
Yes, precisely.  This is the sort of thing we need to look at.  It's not the answer, but it's the kind of thing that helps us put together a composite picture.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 04:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of Course You're Right About Swing Voters Gene (none / 0)

I guess "so what?" is my point about the polls, too. They really don't mean a whole lot at this point, because it's hard to say why people are choosing the candidates they are and how strong they are in their preferences. I would say not very, so all this means to me is that some people have a vaguely positive view of Edwards vs. Romney or Giuliani or whoever. I wouldn't advocate factoring this into anyone's decision, because its very transitory and almost certain to change one way or another.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 06:42:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm Not Talking About Making Decisions (none / 0)

I wouldn't advocate factoring this into anyone's decision, because its very transitory and almost certain to change one way or another.
Framing it in terms making decisions is artificially raising the bar, in order to not think about the polls at all.

Of course Obama and Clinton partisans will want to do this.  But the polls aren't totally meaningless, just because they will surely change over time, or because they don't favor your candidate.  Yes, they will change, and our evaluations of them will change as well.  But right now they do say something that is remarkably consistent across a fair number of different states.  And that bears paying some attention to.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 09:56:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Offence Intended (none / 0)

Obama's rhetoric certainly focuses on procedural reforms, and I think there's a reason for that. People in America understand that there's something greatly wrong with the process in Washington, but don't really have a great grasp on what they want done to fix it. It's awesome that Obama is keying into that frustration and turning it into positive feelings toward him as a candidate. It's a message that people are obviously responding to in great numbers, as evidenced by the number of donors this year (not that his charisma doesn't help, but 260,000 people could be persuaded to give money to someone based on charisma alone).

I think you're selling him short on the positive end, which a lot of people tend to do because they're turned off by the "movement/cult of personality/word du jour" that surrounds him. I'm not sure Edwards has a proposal on his website that Obama doesn't have on his (and watch out for a more detailed education plan when Obama addresses the NEA next week). I think people have really picked up on a frame, in this instance, that just doesn't match reality. I appreciate that Edwards has emphasized policy proposals in his rhetoric, but I think Obama's emphasis on the process actually belies a really detailed set of policy proposals that, for whatever reason, just aren't getting covered in the MSM (but we can't really expect that, can we?) or the blogosphere.

I'm starting to get the urge to write a diary or two a week just outlining a specific policy proposal from the Obama campaign, and possibly comparing it to Edwards and Clinton (though hers don't seem to exist beyond talking points...) to dispel this false notion that Obama lacks policies to back up his rhetoric.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:52:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Offence Intended (none / 0)

ugh, sorry. that first sentence in the second paragraph should say "selling him short on the policy end". No more typing past 1:30 am for me.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It Would Be Great (none / 0)

For you to do such a series of diaries.  That would help to offset the general tendency to gush.

But let me be clear. My argument is not that Obama has no policy proposals. The distinction is what they focus on doing. A diary series would help illuminate that, which would be all to the good.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 09:26:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It Would Be Great (none / 0)

But do you really think Obama's gonna pass ethics reform and then pack it in for the first term?

During the debates, he has said his top two priorities are Iraq and health care, so it would seem ethics reform, while a key part of his pitch, wouldn't be the beginning or the end of his policy pursuits in the White House.

He's using the ethics reform issue as a way to key into his "new politics" theme with a popular proposal and at the same time distinguish himself and his message from Clinton's and Edwards' (it would be easy to get lost in the shuffle of "it's the middle class, stupid" and "two Americas" by doing the standard Dem thing and talking about health care, the poor, and college tuition).


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:21:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"The Standard Dem Thing"??? (none / 0)

The fact is, there's a whole lot of data to show that the Dems suffer from not enough identification with standing up for the little guy. It's why the Dems haven't gained in party identification, even when the GOP has faded.

He's using the ethics reform issue as a way to key into his "new politics" theme with a popular proposal and at the same time distinguish himself and his message from Clinton's and Edwards'
And how is this different from the "new politics" of Bill Clinton 16 years ago?

Bottom Line: What would be so wrong with fusing these two messages together?

(Actually, Clinton did a better job of this--rhetorically, at least--back in 1992 than Obama is doing today.)


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 04:20:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "The Standard Dem Thing"??? (none / 0)

Bill Clinton = "It's the economy, stupid." I would say he focused more on bread and butter economic issues, from what I can surmise from the ads I've seen since (I was 6 years old when that race happened, so don't trust my memory).

And Barack Obama isn't a creature of the DLC. He will be a more progressive president than Bill Clinton.

But even so, Bill Clinton's campaign was successful (though it was a 3-way election). It wouldn't be a bad thing at all to sound like Bill Clinton.

Finally, Obama does hit messages of inequality. If you've seen his stump speech, you know he talks about economic fairness. He hasn't made it a part of the "brand" in the same way Edwards has. I hope he can, because I like the focus to be on those issues, too, but I don't think the message of a campaign precludes it from pursuing policies outside that narrow little box once it enters office.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 06:51:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "The Standard Dem Thing"??? (none / 0)

I definitely agree that Bill Clinton seemed to draw more on the economy than Obama, and I hope Obama does start talking about issues like that more


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 06:56:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton Helped Himself, Damaged The Party (none / 0)

The point is that a winning presidential candidate is necessary, but not sufficient.

The Democratic brand needs reinforcing on the front of fighting for the little guy/gal.  If we do that, we have the potential to rebuild the level of Democratic identification (not just leaners) into the mid- or high-40s.  We do that, and we're the dominant congressional party--election after election after election--for at least a generation.  And we don't just win the elections. We set the agenda.


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 08:03:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Excellent, Shaun (none / 0)

That is precisely the difference.  From my view this is exactly why I support Obama.  

We can keep piling issues upon issues, but until we restore a semblance of process and honor to our government, the issues pile up as just more shit to wade through and you never know what dishonest creep your going to find on your way there.

Also, to get things done in this crazy country, it must be done by increments and between the honest representatives (no matter how few there might be on BOTH sides) of our government.


No Quacks, please.
by noquacks on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 01:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excellent, Shaun (none / 0)

when this process with honor you refer to exist?


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 01:17:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excellent, Shaun (none / 0)

Also, other than the insurance mandate, it's difficult to find policy differences between Edwards and Obama.

I think most people like both of the candidates, but some respond more to the Edwards message and some to the Obama message. I know there are a few hardcore partisans on this blog, but I get the feeling from talking to "regular" (haha) people that many would be happy with either one.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 01:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excellent, Shaun (none / 0)

i actually like both- i just only slightly prefer edwards more. there are some stylistic differences that i think affect strategy but its not policy related


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 01:56:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excellent, Shaun (3.00 / 1)

yep, that's exactly where i'm at, too (except I'm an Obama guy).

It makes it all the more frustrating to see Hillary ahead in the national polls and watch supporters of the two better candidates beating each other up on the blogs


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:11:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excellent, Shaun (none / 0)

honestly i am not worried about the national polls. they really are name ID


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:28:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Still Gushing (3.00 / 2)

Why Paul, your diary today is positively Obama-esque!  Searching for common ground, listening to those with different ideas and discussing the future of the Democratic Party and the country.  Come on over to the sunny side of the street!  

You are standing in the middle of the track on the back stretch of a hotly contested primary so it's no surprise that you might get run over.  Next March we will be united (sort of).

"Who is wise?  He that learns from everyone.  Who is powerful?  He that governs his passions.  Who is rich?  He that is content.  Who is that? Nobody."

-Benjamin Franklin

PS- you'd make a good Supreme Court Justice- very narrow rulings.  


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 09:40:44 PM EST

Nice (none / 0)

I like this diary quite a bit and I appreciate the points you made. However (and I realize you are making generalizations, and are not saying they apply to everyone), I would argue that Edwards supporters can be just as "gushing" as Obama supporters. Clinton supporters, at least here, are more defensive than gushing. Also, as an Obama supporter, I like to think of myself as analytical, and agree with everything Shaun Appelby already said. But overall, some solid points.


"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell
by This Machine Kills Fascists on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 10:36:45 PM EST

I Know What You Mean (3.00 / 2)

About Edwards supporters "gushing" around here, and you have a point.

But if you look at diaries more than comments, then I think my general distinction stands.  While the diaries certainly hype Edwards, a greater percentage of those that draw attention have a substantive focus, compared to the Obama diaries that focus on Obama himself, or the buzz around him.

Of course, there are a fair number on each side that focus on other things, such as horserace stuff.  I am keenly aware that I'm generalizing here, but almost all groups have far more overlap than people realize when you break things down.  Even on hot-button social issues, for exmple, more liberals and conservatives agree than disagree.  We just tend to notice the disagreements more.

The trick, then, is to be able to discuss the disagreements and differences, while drawing on the background strength of the agreements.

The sooner that differences I pointed to disappear entirely, the happier I will be.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 12:02:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Know What You Mean (none / 0)

Totally agree.


"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell
by This Machine Kills Fascists on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:43:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale Of Three Strengths--Obama, Edwards And (none / 0)

Excellent discussion, Paul & Shaun.  Thank you.


by Doug Dilg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 01:43:35 AM EST

Re: A Tale Of Three Strengths--Obama, Edwards And (none / 0)

Aw shucks - you gush!


543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 06:09:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale Of Three Strengths--Obama, Edwards And (none / 0)

Obama supporters gush because Obama is doing good and is a good fit for his supporters.  Edwards supporters are critically analytical because they don't like him as much and he is doing worse.

I think that if some guy who looked a little more like they just came out of a bar fight entered the race you would see a lot of previous edwards supporters gushing.  Especially if he did better than edwards.

I think that this was well illustrated in the poll where edwards had 2% strong support.


by sterra on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 07:01:33 AM EST

Re: A Tale Of Three Strengths--Obama, Edwards And (3.00 / 4)

this is untrue- the difference for me is experience of time. i gushed over clinton, and then I grew up (not saying this is true of present obama supporters, but it is true of me) and I realized politics isn't about gushing, but about deeper things than how I feel. I actually like all three candidates in various ways, but along with liking them, I look at who I think can win, why I think that, what it will mean if they win, why I want a certain type of candidate etc. I doubt I m the only Edwards supporter who feels we have heard all this keep hope alive stuff and why  can't we all just get aalong stuff before. The truth is this country has never gotten along, Progress has always happened in struggle- the civil rights era was struggle, the fight to give women the right to vote was struggle, the civil war was struggle, the gaining of independence was struggle and on and on. So when someone says- we need to build consensus- my response is- no you need to be effective which is sometimes about consensus and sometimes not. I am focused on the fact that I want an agenda more than consensus because the later isn't always desireable. I doubt I am the only Edwards supporter who feels that way. And yes, Obama for me would be a close second because saying all that he's still quantums better than HRC, and I believe he has his heart in the right place, if not the right focus.


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 08:59:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This Is Just The Sort Of Comment I Wanted (none / 0)

Not just because I agree with it.  But because I think it lays out an argument that Obama supporters would do well to respond to.

I hope that they will take up the challenge.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 09:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is Just The Sort Of Comment I Wanted (3.00 / 2)

If this is the argument you want, you have just done a disservice to all that was written above.  Let's break down his argument.

1. Gushing.  He accuses Obama supporters of a superficiality to their politics which should be about "deeper things than how I feel".  Let me tell you, there are things much deeper than a 12 point plan on how to fix a particular issue - what we stand for, what should be Government's role in society, what is our social responsibility.  The trouble with the Democratic Party, and especially the Progressive wing of it, has been that like Faith and Politics, we have been become afraid to talk on those levels and thereby ceded that to the Republicans. These are issues the man on the street understands more than policy points.  The Imus flap was brought up in another thread and frankly, you don't get it.  People are fucking sick and tired of the whole cynical, gothca, talking smack, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, brand of discourse in American Politics, in American sports, in American culture. So if I "gush" over a politician who has the balls to stand up against that cynicism by refusing to get drawn into it, who offers a change from that, who encourages us to be better than that, it does not come from a cheap, hip, superficiality, but actually something a lot deeper, a lot more meaningful.

2. Struggle & Consensus.  You are never effective if you don't build consensus; our way of government is built on the concept of consensus.  When you back away from building consensus you are merely lazy, or you don't have the stomach for the fight.  Another misrepresentation of Obama.  He's never backed away from a fight, he in fact enjoys the challenge of going into things where the odds appear stacked against us.  Far too many people in the modern Progressive movement wear their ineffectiveness like a badge of honor.  You can see it in Dennis Kucinich, standing there, I'm right about health care, I'm right about impeachment, I'm right about peace.  Of course he's right, but so what, he's completely ineffective. He is too content with just being right.  He's got no game.  

When the people on the bridge in Selma got hosed and attacked, they didn't go home and walk around wearing their bloody shirt and say you see I'm right and they're wrong.  They got back up and walked back onto the bridge and the country saw that and more came down and they kept doing that again, and again, and again until there was a consensus.  It is never enough to just struggle.


by Doug Dilg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:49:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is Just The Sort Of Comment I Wanted (none / 0)

Once more stop lecturing others about what you Doug think is the right answer. I go through great pains below not to lecture the person above, but instead tell him or her from where my thinking grows. The problem often with you Doug is that your post are about Doug's process as if others haven't though of these things. I've read many of Paul's diaries. He is one of the few around him who is extremely well thought out.


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 12:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is Just The Sort Of Comment I Wanted (3.00 / 1)

This is another example of an ad hominem attack, an attack of the poster not the post.  My opinion differs from yours so it becomes a lecture.  


by Doug Dilg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 12:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is Just The Sort Of Comment I Wanted (none / 0)

doug if what I say above seems to you to be an ad honiem then that says it all really


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 12:47:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

With All Due Respect (3.00 / 1)

I think you're missing my point.  You are reiterating the same old standard Obama defense that we've all heard a zillion times before.  By in large, Obama supporters find it convincing. Others do not.  I was hoping to get beyond this sort of shouting match approach to break things down a little more into component parts, and see if they couldn't be put together in different ways.

Specifically, on your two points:

(1) Of course people are sick of partisan bickering.  But they also want things to get done.  And the things they want done are violently opposed by the GOP power structure. Just look at what's happened in the Senate since January, for example.  The notion that Democrats and Republicans are equally responsible for this state of affairs is simply a lie. And your argument above--intentionally or not--implicitly reinforces that lie.

This hardly means that I think progressives are blameless.  I have plenty of criticisms of how progressives have organized over the past several decades.  But creating polarization is not among their sins.  This doesn't mean they have always handled polarization well.  But it does mean that a more subtle, more nuanced, more sophisticated form of criticism is necessary than that offered by Obama--and especially by his supporters like you, as you express yourself above.

If you're all for reaching out and creatring consensus, then start doing so right here and right now.  Make some real effort to understand a less cartoonish view of the issues involved.

(2) All the major accomplishments of American political history are the result of political struggle. Consensus-building in the polity at large comes after the struggle.  The consensus-building that matters is that within the movements for change, and the coalition of forces that is willing to support them.  Consensus-building across the aisle is generally a formula for incrementalism--which is fine, provided that the foundations are sound. But the foundations are laid by struggle.

That's why I tend to think that Obama would be a better President after Edwards.  Because Edwards is more of a fighter, and that's what's needed to lay down a new foundation.

JFK and LBJ were generically similar to Obama and Edwards.  JFK would have never established the range of Great Society programs that Johnson did.  Medicare?  Not a chance.  The landmark Civil Rights legislation?  Highly doubtful, at best. Of course Vietnam is a cloud over everything Johnson accomplished.  But he dramatically changed our domestic policy landscape for the better.  No President since FDR comes close to what LBJ accomplished.  Consesnsus feels good. But the challenge of leadership is to do good.

When the people on the bridge in Selma got hosed and attacked, they didn't go home and walk around wearing their bloody shirt and say you see I'm right and they're wrong.  They got back up and walked back onto the bridge and the country saw that and more came down and they kept doing that again, and again, and again until there was a consensus.  It is never enough to just struggle.
With all due respect, you have a very garbled understanding of the voting rights struggle, and the Selma-Montgomery March. It was not about consensus-building, except in a very minor, tertiary way.  It was about forcing an issue onto the national agenda, and doing it at a time when the Democrats had an historic legislative majority, and a pro-Civil Rights White Southerner in the White House.

Johnson pushed through as much legislation as fast as he could in 1965-66, because he knew that the large majorities he had wouldn't last, and the opportunities for GOP support where needed--on Civil Rights, especially--would soon slip away.  He had already gotten the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed, before the 1964 election.  Another major Civil Rights bill the next year was too much, too soon according to the conventional wisdom, according to the DC consensus.  But once the grassroots activists put voting rights on the agenda, LBJ was fiercely behind it, and the law that was passed was not the result of consensus.  It became the foundation of a new consensus, over a period of years and protracted struggle.

Struggle => Accomplishment => Consensus

That's the way it works when it comes to the really big issues.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:50:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (3.00 / 1)

Guess I'm just not getting anything done this afternoon.  Fair enough.  There are obviously major distinctions to draw between the apt JFK/LBJ analogy and the political terrain faced by the 08 candidates.  But the one that can't be ignored is the difference in the media environment.  LBJ could do what he did partly because he could trust at least some organs in the media to give him and his arguments a fair shake.  We don't live in that place anymore.  Instead, we live in this awful simplistic universe where, as Rittenhouse, RIP, so beautifully explained, our political press acts like a bunch of gossipy mean girls who are drunk with the power of deciding who gets to be popular and cool.  Thank God for the blogs and the tiny little stream of air they poked into the suffocating bubble of the elite, mainstream American political press.  But the work of dismantling that beast has only just started.  Total blog readership today is a tiny fraction of the voting public and while there have been lots of victories along the way, the press has become fiercely resistant to the blogs' ascendancy and the deck is still stacked against progressive ideas in the media as a result.    

Let's say hypothetically Obama or Edwards came out with a bunch of bold new plans called "GS2" that were going to help the poor, publicly finance elections, undo NAFTA, create single payer insurance, etc.  Can you imagine the howls and cackling?  I shudder to think of the Maureen Dowd columns.  In fact, efforts to force this kind of a program into the public debate without first changing the terms and the deeper fundamentals are likely a net detriment to the progressive cause.  It's just another opportunity for the broader public to hear another full-scale assault on progressive values, the end result being increased marginalization of the goals we seek to achieve.

The allure of Obama is that he's got enough leeway in the media to espouse these ideas and not get shouted down.  Now, granted, he went out and hired a bunch of jackass consultants who have him speaking like another scared, timid Dem right now.  But the themes that he set out for his public persona and fundamental message are still an excellent articulation of core progressive principles.  So the hope is that he has a chance to really recalibrate the country's understanding of the progressive agenda, and in that sense, I would argue that you have it exactly backwards.  Edwards or someone else can come in and be a fighter afterwards, once Obama has set the table by reestablishing progressive politics as a dominant force in our political culture. While he's at it, I think Obama's given us every reason to believe he would enact a set of reforms that would further this vision with an eye towards growing and broadening the progressive coalition behind him into a "consensus" level, which in US politics translates to roughly 60%+. Judging from polling on virtually every major issue on the progressive agenda--the war, energy, health care, education, minimum wage--I think it's possible.  If he can do it, he will be an absolutely essential figure in this nascent progressive era.  

And to that extent, I think you're giving JFK the short shrift here, Paul.  The put a man on the moon version of the progressive vision and the great society version are indeed interrelated, then and today.  Most of what LBJ accomplished would have been impossible without an America that had been primed for change by a candidate, then President who embodied that desire.  So I don't think us Obama supporters do or should necessarily take offense to your JFK comparison.  That's a good thing, in my book.  


by msbatxnyc on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 06:19:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some Food For Thought--I'll Bite! (none / 0)

The allure of Obama is that he's got enough leeway in the media to espouse these ideas and not get shouted down.  Now, granted, he went out and hired a bunch of jackass consultants who have him speaking like another scared, timid Dem right now.  But the themes that he set out for his public persona and fundamental message are still an excellent articulation of core progressive principles.  So the hope is that he has a chance to really recalibrate the country's understanding of the progressive agenda, and in that sense, I would argue that you have it exactly backwards.
This is a good argument, even though I'm not sure it's true. The media is undoubtedly the worst obstacle we face, and the question is, what strategy, if any can be effective in dealing with it.

I understand the appeal of Obama, because he seems to have been given a pass unlike any other Dem on the scene.  But I'm wondering, for example, if the "jackass consultants" are part of the deal.  He hires the "right" people, and that's part of what makes him continue to be acceptable.

And then, I wonder, what happens when the press turns on him?

I see a lot of room for Obama to shift gears and recalibrate his approach--some will certainly attack him for it, but if he can do it right, those attacks will be a small minority.

The question is, will there come a time where the media simply stops treating him any differently than they do every other Dem?  And if so, what does he do then?

OTOH, my feeling is that Edwards plans on pushing a class message hard, so that when the media attacks him, this will be read as a class attack, and shrugged off by the core swing constituency he's trying to reach.  He is also trying to establish a fighting persona, to force the press to back off a bit.

While he's at it, I think Obama's given us every reason to believe he would enact a set of reforms that would further this vision with an eye towards growing and broadening the progressive coalition behind him into a "consensus" level, which in US politics translates to roughly 60%+. Judging from polling on virtually every major issue on the progressive agenda--the war, energy, health care, education, minimum wage--I think it's possible.  If he can do it, he will be an absolutely essential figure in this nascent progressive era.
There has long been a progressive majority across a wide range of issues.  It's gotten significantly broader and deeper over the last few years, but even when the GOP took over Congress in 1994, there was still a solid majority of people in favor of sustaining or expanding the welfare state--which is pretty much the core of what Gingrich & Co claimed a mandate to fight against.  So the question has never been the existence of that majority.  The question is, what can be done to legislate what they want?

I would like to see a focusing of the debate about what needs to be done and how.  Right now, I only get a vague sense from folks like you of how this might happen.  And that's part of the problem for me.  Quite frankly, any candidate is likely to have their own ideas about how it should be done, and the question will be, how much do grassroots activists and others defer to the order and agenda of the President?

Whoever is elected, I can understand the argument for deferring a whole lot better than I can understand the argument for disarming.  A muscular progressive movement can be invaluable in helping to pass a progressive agenda, whoever is elected.  And part of bulding a muscular movement is having healthy, productive debates that avoid--as much as possible--going around in circles over the same territory.

Which leads me to this: Do you have anything more specific in the way of ideas about how such a progessive agenda would unfold under Obama?  I would be very interested in hearing this laid out.  In fact, while I welcome a response in a comment, I think it would be a very worthwhile topic for a diary, or two, for that matter.

And to that extent, I think you're giving JFK the short shrift here, Paul.  The put a man on the moon version of the progressive vision and the great society version are indeed interrelated, then and today.  Most of what LBJ accomplished would have been impossible without an America that had been primed for change by a candidate, then President who embodied that desire.  So I don't think us Obama supporters do or should necessarily take offense to your JFK comparison.  That's a good thing, in my book.
Basically, I'm in agreement, with a few nuances.

JFK changing the tone from stodginess of the Eisenhower era was definitely an important factor.  There's no doubt that Kennedy helped change the tone and raise expectations.  But there's also no doubt that Kennedy had very little taste to a robust domestic agenda.  And, of course, the assasination made Kennedy into a martyr, which amped up the power of his charisma into a whole 'nother level.  And LBJ knew it.

Finally, I think you're right, that the comparison is not an insult.  Charisma is a powerful force in politics, especially if people give thought to how to channel it productively.  JFK did this when he pledged to put a man on the Moon, when he establsihed the Peace Corps, and when he challenged ordinary Americans to engage in 50-mile walks (something that history seems to have largely forgotten, but it had a real impact in helping to set a favorable political tone, as well as planting the seeds of the modern fitness movement.)

Just because JFK was not a movement candidate did not mean he failed to reach people in novel and direct ways.  And I'm not trying to poo-poo Obama, either, when I say he's not a movement candidate.  This is not a moral judgement or condemnation on my part.  It's simply a matter of drawing distinctions.  The better one understands the distinction, the better one can make the most of the situation at hand, properly understood.  And that's what I see you starting to do, by raising the points you make here.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 08:08:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (3.00 / 1)

Paul, you get me wrong if you think I don't understand your point, I get exactly where you're coming from including the with all due respect part and then under your breath because none is due and then proceed to say my view is cartoonish, my view is garbled. I get that.  It's just that I disagree and I think you are failing, either intentionally or not, to face the issues expressed.  

1A. I bring up that what we stand for, what role Government plays in our lives, and what is our social responsibility are things which are important to the public, and you seize on people being sick of partisan bickering but want to accomplish things and off you go into your political analysis ignoring the point.  Why did the Republican Party succeed at establishing the Christian Right when Christianity is at its core liberal?  I'm not sure what the deep seated reasons are for that, but I do know that to dismiss that and instead solely concentrate on getting things done is no answer. It is symptomatic of the refusal to speak in those terms that the word "gushing" is used as a mild insult.  Faith plays a much larger role in most people's lives than politics.  If we are talking general election politics, and after all isn't that really what we should be after, it is the candidate who can best satisfies the people beyond the issues who does the best.

1B. You italicize "of course" people are sick of the partisanship, as if I've said the most simplistic thing in the world, and then go on with a partisan argument and say that I am reinforcing the lie  that both sides are to blame and it's really the GOP's fault.  With all due respect, the "lie" is to say people give a damn whose fault it is.  Even within our Party.  There is a reason why Obama's "there is not a liberal America and a conservative America but the United States of America" is trumping Edwards "Two Americas" right now.  They are both actually saying close to the same thing, but Edwards is unintentionally playing into the politics of the past which people are sick of.  Obama is articulating a change in the basic way we approach politics. Edwards would be a lot better off if he used the term he uses for his non-profit and Leadership PAC: One America.

2. I wasn't offering an analysis of the voting rights struggle, as I'm sure you know.  It was said as a metaphor, undoubtedly an inarticulate one.   But I agree with everything you say in your first paragraph and everything which follows is quite beside the point.

Except the part about Edwards being a better fighter than Obama.  I would love to know what gives you that impression.  His six years in the Senate, as far as I know, were pretty uneventful whereas Obama has a very strong record of passing major reforms both in the State level and now starting in the Federal level especially on Ethics reform (which circles back to points 1).  Edwards may struggle, but where are the accomplishments?


by Doug Dilg on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 06:27:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

a) The choice of rhectoric for one is a clear indicator of how each intends to govern. And while we are at comparing records- let's do a full accounting- both guys were moderate progressive in terms of their record. What's worse- voting for the war or funding? Answer both- so neither can claim clean hands on that one. This is true of just about all the issues one can name. The real difference is how they propose to run their administration. Obama hopes to convince and then lead, Edwards talks of leading and by leading he hopes to convince. One can claim as you do that he may not mean it or not, but one can not claim that there isn't a clear approach there that goes beyond surface differences.

By what each candidate is  saying we are defining Edwards as the stronger fighter. He's the one saying things like "yes, I am going to go for these policies even if it doesn't at first mean I am catering to everyone." The example of that was his response over healthcare. Early on he has made it clear what sacrifice he expects of people. The problem (or can be depending on where he goes with it) of Obama's rhectoric is that it requires no personal self sacrifice. It maybe implicit in consensus, but not explicit.

b) Paul doesn't seize on partisanship for a random reason. His comments reflect a  central theme of Obama's campaign- "I can build consensus" what do you think that means? FOr that matter, yes, the central concern of Americans if you talk to them or poll them is that Washington gets nothing done. Partisanship is why they think don't get done, but that's another point entirely. The reality is that they are wrong-t hings don't get done because of a lack of leadership to push for things to get done.

c) Everything paul says about struggle isn't beside the point- it is the point. That the forces amassed against say healthcare reform are entrenched- and anyone expecting to change them had better expect a fight of their life. Ask HRC 1993 versus now for example.

By the way-I do find it interesting that based off my comments- which you claim were attacks on you- that you are now engaged in a conversation that is all about what I said in the innitial post which you also claim wasn't that good.


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 06:58:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

I disagree with your comment which conflates the AUMF, or other authorisation votes, with funding measures.  I have said this before but it may bear repeating, it is important to take into account the distinction between de-funding the war and de-authorising or mandating withdrawal.

Strategically I believe it is important to de-authorise or mandate a withdrawal for two compelling reasons, it restores the war powers to Congress, where they belong, and it undermines any attempt by the GOP to portray Democrats as putting US troops in harms way without support.  Senator Obama has made this distinction and I believe he is correct and his votes are consistent with this strategy.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 07:31:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

I think it's spin. It's pretty simple. Funding is a leverage. In fact, if you want to control things, it's one of the top two powers (tax and spend) that Congress has.

If Obama wants to be a leader, especially, President, then he needs to also speak to perception. In other words, playing a game of chicken here was something the American people wanted the Democrats to do, and very quickly they caved. Rather than seeming strong, it made us look weak.

This is actually illustrative of my chief concern- he understands the issues, how to speak about them, etc, but he doesn't understand how to win at times. Sometimes winning isn't about about who can make the best argument. It's about things like playing chicken. That's the struggle part. He needs to understand that Day One the GOP will be gunning for him. Trying to reason his way out of it by building a consensus only opens up his soft underbelly to attack. Sorry for all the metaphors, but I don't know how else to explain the flaw in the thinking.


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 07:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

Well, if I understand you correctly, maybe this is where we diverge.  I like to see a reasoned strategy adhered to by a candidate who has made a cogent choice on his position.  Obama has been quite clear on this point and I respect his decision not to engage in playing chicken.  I like to think that he considers some of these national issues, which fall into his responsibility as Senator, are more important than perceptions in the campaign or, for that matter, the electorate.  I am not saying there isn't a time and place for de-funding the war, just not here and now.

I would welcome a discussion on the underlying premise, however, as this strategy has been contested by respected voices within the Democratic party in the course of the debate.  It is worth reviewing the McGovern-Hatfield legislation during the Vietnam War for some background on the pros and cons of de-funding versus mandate in a similar historical context.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 08:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

Your main mistake- if I can call it that- is the assumption that negotiation is either serious, in which case, it's reasoned, or it's game theory (which is what I am referring), in which case it's not serious. My point is that it's both. His failure,a nd that of the Democrats in general is a failure of the later point about game theory (strategies for negotiation).


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 09:23:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

I understand your point but it is a non zero-sum game, the one you are referring to, isn't it?  Games theory isn't nearly so attractive in that context.  My assumption that the 'negotiation' is serious is intentional.  I have deep misgivings about the extent to which adversarial political considerations affect the outcomes of otherwise serious, and often trans-partisan, negotiation in our legislature, though I agree that the Iraq votes this year were partisan conflicts where serious outcomes were not expected by either side.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 09:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

no- game theory isn't zero sum. it's merely one way to look at negotiation - in actuallity I am referring to strategies of negotiation. ie, if you capitulate too soon- the perception is weakness. You frame this as either/or- when in fact you have to do both- the negotiation tech and the reasonable stuff.


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 10:20:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

What I was trying to say in game theory terms is that the outcome of a non zero-sum game is almost always indeterminable, based on the infinite sum of external infuences, that's all.

I was hoping the discussion might continue the analysis of the anti-Iraq voting both last year and since the Democratic majority.  There are some disappointments and opportunities in that history which continue to be relevant, and difficult choices have been presented to all concerned.

I think the inherent Democratic weakness has not been in capitulation but in failing to frame the conflict optimally in the first place.  The plethora of competing bills for ending the war left the electorate, and supporters, divided on the issue.  If Democrats had unanimously disavowed de-funding in favour of mandated withdrawal, for example, it may have improved our chances.  Or the opposite, but not both.  As it was we received the criticism inherent in both approaches but achieved little.  These solution advocacy issues are very difficult processes to manage and I was not expecting miracles, but we need to do better.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 10:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

Show me the polls showing a divided electorate on this issue, and then we can continue this discussion properly. Also, it doesn't matter in the public's mind what you explain as the process- what they saw was a reinforcement that we are weak. Nearly every layperson you talk to will say that. There is a reason why. We lost the minute they gave in to Bush. Reason isn't going to trump the emotional impact.


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

Yes, but that's exactly my point.  Congressional Democrats were divided on de-funding vs mandated withdrawal.  The public saw failure but here at myDD supporters were arguing the merits and weaknesses of these two strategies in the context of the competitive ambitions of our respective candidates.  It was a PR disaster and one has to believe it was avoidable.

Half the Democrats shied away from de-funding on principle, the other half were damned if they weren't going to go for the throat, etc.  Embarrassing, counter-productive and ultimately useless.  I can only assume that Democrats were as surprised by their slender majority in the Senate as the GOP, they didn't seem able to manage this important vote.

It's not that we didn't press home the issue, we just couldn't get our sh*t together, frankly, until the last minute; too late.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:47:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

let me ask you a question- why do you think that's the case? my honest view is that its because we have an  entire generation of democratic politicians who are used to be in the idealogical minority (If not the minority in fact in terms of where the public is or in actual numbers in congress because of the ascendency of reagan) and so they play that mentality out. most of these people are borne out of a reaction to the reagan revolution rather than as some earlier period. nearly everything they do seems defined by it. that's why i dont think many of them despite being powerful are equiped for the changes that seem to be occuring in which progressivism is potentially on the ascendency. it's true they may have started in an earlier periods as progressive but gone are the days of folks like tip o'neil who knew how to weld power. when we discuss these issues of folks like obama- the concern at base is does he know how to well power? consensus is only one face of power. does he get this is a period in which whoever is the next president more than likely will define democrats for 10 to 20 years or so.  i know he maybe saying these things for messaging and strategy buti do have that concern in the back of my mind.


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

Yeah, thanks, I am really enjoying this too.  I think you make an excellent point about the minority mentality and then illustrate the diametrical opposite of that condition in Tip O'Neill.  Coupla' things, one Will Rogers wasn't kidding when he said I don't belong to an organised party.  I'm a Democrat and the truth of that will always be with us.  We wouldn't have it any other way but it raises the bar for us when we have a mandate for change.  In fact the level of discipline that the GOP achieves in anathema to the processes we use for finding solutions.  The problem is when it is time to close ranks we are willing but incapable.  We just don't have a suitable framework for achieving party solidarity even locally, like for one afternoon on the Senate floor.  A strong Democratic presidency might change this, but an autocratic one would fail.

I completely agree that we are witnessing a progressive watershed which will set the agenda for the next decade or two.  I personally believe it will significantly change the demographics of the respective party bases and this is the real point.  Democrats gave up majority for values during the civil rights movement and they chose well, but it has been an uphill struggle ever since.

Wielding power is fine but you will notice that those in history whom have wielded it with the most significant effect have been those who forged it in the first place.  It is forging power which is the issue, real power, not some DLC think-tank projection of corporate strategic planning or a memorial celebration of the progressive Hall of Fame.  The electorate is restless, the leader or movement which animates the most people to participate in reaching their common objectives will be in the position to set that agenda.

As for Obama, since you mentioned, can he wield power?  I believe Obama is forging it before our very eyes.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 01:11:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

by the way- it's nice talking to someone on here who isn't full of it for a change. you are making some very good points.


by bruh21 on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:09:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With All Due Respect (none / 0)

ps a divided washington by the way- isn't the same as a divided public. dc's inner circle maybe have been divided by you will challenged to show the public was divided enough to be anything other than ma